n/a - ignitor ii module and magnet sleeve air gap is not adjustable. As soon as you check it with a dwell meter, you'll find that you need to develop a system of alternate measurements with your feeler gauges to get it close to the ideal spec on the first few tries. He did increase the dwell with his adjustment and that obviously cured his problem. No points, condenser, no adjustments, no timing lights. Done. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! The higher the current level in the coil, the longer the duration of the spark that can be maintained in the secondary. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. PerTronix Ignition Products [30] JBA Performance Exhaust [12] Free Delivery Free shipping on orders over $100 in contiguous 48 states. True or false? Just like when you replace points or take the distributor apart. Look at this graph to help understand why: The blue line represents the secondary ignition voltage waveform. Works great and no plug fouling even with rich, 12.5/1 fuel mixture. Wanting to see this for myself, I put the secondary ignition under test measurement equipment to see how varying gaps would perform. Each kit is designed specifically for the distributor type. Enlarging the gap further runs the risk that the mounting plate will contact the distributor body which will limit the movement of the advance plate or produce a scratching noise when you rotate the distributor. general information 1. important: read all instructions before starting installation. The entire setup was about a year old. 04/10/05 - Created This is the quantity that is adjusted when you gap your points. JavaScript is disabled. As this happens the preferred position from which the spark will jump is no longer the center of each contact. 0.133 s / (360/45) = 16.7 ms to sweep 45 degrees. The cam on the shaft of the distributor has an even rise and fall from the heel of the cam to the toe (raised edge). The gap set using the 0.85mm plastic feeler gauge provided produces a dwell of about 54 degrees. This is a normal procedure after the initial installation because the dwell/timing will vary from the value your points were set to as the Pertronix trigger location has been moved to a position different from where the points opened. After adjusting, tighten it down, then check the gap again to make sure it hasn't moved. The key is that the coil (inductor) takes time to charge and the dwell determines the delay before charging begins as well as the charging duration. green womens pant suit; outdoor voices exercise skirt Easy Returns Have confidence in your purchase with hassle-free returns Technical Knowhow Always call us first! So you may have to check, clean and adjust the points every 12,000-15,000 miles. . The dwell angle of these systems is fixed and often slightly higher than stock. Because the dwell changed (smaller) the timing changed (retarded) and vice versa but that was all. Your IP: You've probably heard that you can adjust the dwell on your Pertronix Ignitor I (simply known as the Pertronix) by varying the gap between the pickup module and the rotating magnetic sleeve. JavaScript is disabled. The polarity is not correct. 218 Garage: 1 Location: Lugoff, SC Vehicle: '69.5 Maverick 302, T-5, Grabber Green I have a pertronix, and you can open the plugs up to .045, and it will run better and get better mileage. Even adding the Pertronix coil adds very little power, so the gap needs to stay the same. Varying the gap had no effect on the spark waveform at idle. Jun 1, 2016. The Pertronix has failed and left me stuck once. The dialectic constant of the gap and therefore the voltage required to jump it, varies with temperature, pressure and the air fuel ratio of the mixture. Without knowing the how the electronics inside the module work exactly I can't say what limit can be reached but this seems to be moot anyway because the module will hit the distributor body first. PerTronix 1165 Ignitor Delco 6 Odd Fire Electronic Ignition Conversion Kit 1165 $101.99 + - Add to cart 12-Volt Negative Ground Delivers twice the voltage to the spark plugs, increasing horsepower, fuel economy, and spark plug life. Because of the radial play in the shaft of a worn distributor reducing the gap any further runs the risk of the pickup module contacting the magnetic sleeve that is rotating with the shaft especially if you haven't rotated the shaft to check that the clearance is even (the sleeve may be out of round). Jeff Ford Contact: Jford@autorestomod.com Sponsor: http://www.nationalpartsdepot.com Parts: Check www.nationalpartsdepot.com for Pertronix Ignitor for your car. ignition system installers information sheet we recommend a pertronix ignitor kit should always be installed by a qualified automotive electrician. You can read it yourself at Ken's Buggy Barn. They are also a little harder on the shaft bushings. When I reduce the gap to 0.40mm I can lower the dwell by 1 degree to 53 degrees. Shop Now Unless your running a CD Capacitor discharge box or a magneto stay with the stock settings which usually are 30 on the the stock points ignition.. We've seen that if the gap is too large (small dwell) then the coil won't have enough time to charge but if the gap is too small (large dwell) then the spark may not occur (misfire) because current flowing through the primary side will jump the points for too long and fail to break the circuit as they are supposed to do. Once you get the timing set correctly, it shouldn't need it again until something that affects the timing is serviced. Like any circuit, the voltage, current and resistance present are all related and have an impact on spark produced. The only reason I asked was a few videos/blogs mentioned that it may need to be adjusted a couple of degrees to really get the most out of the swap. Moving back to the topic of 4-cyl VW engines, why do some people insist that the dwell be set to 45 degrees instead of 50? When the second set opens, the circuit is finally broken. The problem is the distributor is worn out. '65 A-code coupe, T-10 4-speed, 8" 3.25 limited slip. Is that such a big deal? Electricity seeks the path of least resistance so the higher the resistance at the plug, the more likely it is to find a "leak" path before it gets to the plug. A few corrections are below: 1) The coil does NOT determine the plug voltage. The Pertronix is an electronic replacement for the points in your distributor. I hate messing with points, so IMO, next time the points need replacement, put in the Pertronix and keep the points in the car as a spare. Good news! 1966 289 2V Coupe FMX Transmission 9-inch Axle. Given my own experience I can only attribute it to a manufacturing fault because I could not lower my dwell below 53 degrees safely. The points/condenser are the only part of the system that have gone the way of the dodo but only because of government mandated emissions regulations that require ignition systems to be maintenance free for 50k miles. Why is the classic ignition setup used? As the plugs wear they will open to . Because of this it becomes harder for the spark to bridge the gap and so a larger dwell period can be tolerated which is preferred in order to better saturate the coil at higher rpms. 289 4V, T5. Therefore, the points don't work very well. Yes, you must adjust timing too (at least) stock specs with a timing light when you install Pertronix! (1) - ignitor ii and magnet sleeve air gap can be adjusted anywhere between 0.010" and 0.050". du907 Woodchuck Registered Joined Mar 6, 2001 43,108 Posts 35 for most consistent performance. So why not run as much dwell as possible with Pertronix instead of abiding by the plastic feeler gauge? If you go to the Pertronix website, I think they recommend opening 0.005 over standard setting. Contact Information Postal address: Retro Rockets, P.O. The Pertronix is just a replacement for points. 07/15/19 - Google update: new adsense code, removed defunt translate button. At the speeds the engine can spin, this becomes significant. If you added an MSD 6AL box operated by the Pertronix then you might open the gap to .040". Spacing of magnets in sleeve can be off by 1/2 deg. The voltage coming from the coil, has to be large enough to ionize the mixture between the gap. The easy way to check this is to reposition the sleeve four times rather than bump the engine. Since the Pertronix can switch must faster than the points due to the rising and closing action of the cam, Pertronix Inc has decided to set the dwell a little higher to allow the coil to saturate better at higher rpms. A forum community dedicated to Chevrolet Chevelle owners and enthusiasts. Let's assume the points are closed exactly half the time. by Richard Atwell Set it yourself and find out. (See 'Misfiring' point above for 'Voltage Testing' tips) The air gap between the module and magnet sleeve is too great. There are different versions of Pertronix. But in the instructions, they mention it basically just needs an air gap to operate. Currently working on a 1970 Mach 1 project. 06/03/09 - Added introduction Come join the discussion about restorations, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! ), 900 crankshaft rpm = 450 distributor shaft rpm. Jul 23, 2019 There's a few bits of misinformation being bantered about here. That's 3 advantages: fixed dwell and timing and a better than spec dwell. When I increased the gap to 2mm I can increase the dwell to about 58 degrees. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/721154-1970-mach-1-h-code-build.html, Convert Points to Electronic Distributor | MustangSteve.com, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 901, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. If not for that, I'm sure new cars would still have them factory installed because of their low manufacturing cost. cam, Stabilizes dwell and timing during tune-up interval of 15k miles (better idle and smoother revs), Sleeve can sometimes be difficult to install over distributor shaft (21mm of clearance is normal), Will burn out immediately if wired backwards, Still requires you to lubricate dist. Because the coil current is about 5A instead of 7.5A a weaker spark is produced. Who should you believe? please note: the ignitor is not a generic product. For every 0.10mm change in the gap, the timing drafts 3 degrees. For the Pertronix Ignitor II installation, the gap should be . For the purpose of this article, these quantities are fixed in a stock system. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. Since it's only aluminum, file it if you find yourself wanting to experiment with larger values. Ive just heard of the increased reliability of it and thought Id be avoiding a future headache by swapping now. You get what you pay for! However adjustment is far less picky than points so it's worthwhile to try for yourself. Increase the gap as much as possible without contacting the distributor body. microsoft office 2019 mac cd key. cam through felt wick (don't forget! The ground wire inside the distributor is not connected. The ingenious workaround for this problem was to use a second set of points wired to the first and place them offset from another cam lobe. Mar 12, 2003 If you go to the Pertronix website, I think they recommend opening 0.005 over standard setting. The increase in dwell produced the improved results and I would imagine the increase would be a benefit for any rebuilt engine designed with a higher redline. If you add an aftermarket coil and/or ignition box too you can open up to 0.40"-0.50 for a stronger spark. Cloudflare Ray ID: 76b22c569920330c Install does not require removing the distributor. Put the magnet on over the cam. I closed the gap to match the gap on my other car but saw little change in the way it ran. If this was true at one time, it was the fault of an older design or perhaps an electronic unit mistaken for a Pertronix branded unit. At 7,000 rpm, a spark plug ignites the air/fuel mixture nearly 60 times per second. Don Lindfors of Pertronix Performance Products Serves Up an Electrifying Education. Here are a few extra tips I've picked up from installing hundreds and hundreds of Pertronix kits over the last several years: When installing the magnetic ring on the distributor shaft, check to see if it fits loose. Pertronix recommends an increase of .005" after install, which would make my new "ideal" gap .040". What works best for 289 2bb stock engine. I've installed several in different vehicles over the years and I feel the pros outweigh the cons considering the price and the fact that I've never had a failure: There are fancy CDI systems out there that cost a lot more and there are copies of the Pertronix like the HotSpark and Compufire/Accufire that cost less but as they say, YMMV. Set a multimeter to the lowest possible resistance test and place the probes onto tips of the plug for the ignitor. You can do it. Thanks! As always, disconnect the battery before doing any work on the ignition system. These adjustments explain the variations in dwell reported by VW owners (dwell meter accuracy not withstanding). He suggested 0.035" plug gap. Their reasoning is that as the rider on the points wears on the cam, the gap becomes smaller and this increases the dwell. Since the current level is determined by the dwell angle, we need to set the dwell correctly. Black 1971 Mach 1 - 351C/FMX/TrickFlow Heads/Lunati Retro Roller Conversion. First realize that the gap works the opposite with the Pertronix: larger gaps increase the dwell because the design of the electronic switching mechanism. Is there an optimum gap for the Pertronix system? Here's a reference to get you started with your research/learning: A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. I do know it advanced the timing a little though. See how it takes about 4ms for the coil to saturate (also notice how the secondary voltage drops below zero during the the time is coil is recharging but that's another article in itself). PerTronix has several types of Ignition types, some of which could be labeled HEI, while others would not. 1971 Mach 1, 351C w/Trick Flow Heads, Lunati Retro Roller, FMX. 1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black If you borrow a tool more than twice, you need to own it!!! The pertronix, with a good hot coil, put a lot more voltage to the plug, so you can increase from .035 to .045. (c) Copyright 2005-2011. My car was converted to the Pertronix setup, including a relay to power the Pertronix coil (bypassing the ballast resistor as Pertronix recommends).I am seriously considering going back to points. The logic is to start with a less than ideal dwell and gradually reach the ideal value rather than start out at ideal and drift from there. System is designed for use with most point . Luckily as the rpms increase, so does the turbulence in the combustion chamber which helps to propagate the flame and burn the mixture more easily but at some point our weak spark factors in and the result is a big drop in power. C code 1965 Mustang coupe. 1281 PerTronix 1281 Ignitor Ford 8 cyl Electronic Ignition Conversion Kit $93.41 Add to cart S3000P Pertronix part number S3000P Contour Starter 1964-2000 Chevrolet SB/BB, 153T and 168T flywheels, 1963-74 L6 (230, 250, 292 engines) with straight botl pattern, polished finish $327.20 Add to cart My theory why the dwell spec varies as the points wear (used vs. new) comes from the construction: points have a radiused tungsten surface. During this ramp-up (delay) time of the voltage, the coil is losing energy by leakage of coil current down the plug wire and across/through any carbon/dirt deposits on the center electrode insulator (top or bottom). Put the Pertronix in. Second, we can get away with this because the Pertronix is an electronic switch and too large a dwell won't cause it to misfire like points would. No points, condenser, no adjustments, no timing lights. What happens is the coil ramps up its secondary voltage, not energy, until the voltage is high enough to jump the plug gap. You can identify them by the striped wiring and 01 030 part number: Be sure to keep your cam well lubed with this set of points. Put the rotor back on. 09/07/11 - Fixed broken photos, added translate button, updated footer This will prevent the timing from shifting . Pertronix is popular solely because it's popular not because it's so great. I'd leave it. Two screws, line up the tab. So what are we trying to maximize? You can do it. If you build a bigger motor especially one with a higher rev limit, you can see that a better ignition is a must. See it here: If you have new points that work fine, then you have time to consider what you might want to do. As they wear they pit on one side and a tit forms on the other. I'm looking for some feedback as to spark plug gap settings when using the ignitor II. In some countries VW included the dwell on the engine lid sticker and said to set it to 47 +/- 3 degrees. The limitation exists because the points (the switch) are mechanical in nature. Put the Pertronix in. It has no 'points' it is an electronic module. The distributor design is about 100 years old along with the rest of the ignition system that Charles Kettering invented. You can feel the improvement right after installation during your first drive. With respect to the Pertronix unit, this question came up for John Twist at a tech seminar at MG2008 last week. My car has an igniter 1 installed. I didn't teach you everything I know.". You may find the module support plate hits some part other than the body during your adjustment. put it in at an unknown date and Ive owned the car for 13 years. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 901, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. I've not been able to replicate comments that leaving the ignition on with the engine off burns out the unit. What is dwell? A kit that has been designed for a particular distributor type may also fit other distributors that use the same point set, cap and rotor. In German, it's called "schliess winkel" which literally means closing angle. The Pertronix is an electronic replacement for the points in your distributor. As the first set of points open, the second set remain closed to continue the current build-up in the coil. For example, in a 4-cyl the distributor rotates through 90 degrees for each spark plug but the ideal dwell is never exactly half: 50 degrees vs. 45 degrees. I recommend doing some research into converting to a Duraspark II ignition if you want to replace the points. Performance & security by Cloudflare. You've also probably heard from equally as many people that the dwell cannot be adjusted. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. A solid-state electronic ignition system."never change points again!" Test Results show the ignitor delivers twice the voltage to the spark plugs, increasing horsepower, fuel economy and plug life. to open up the gap. If it needs to be readjusted, loosen the screw slightly and make the adjustment, then tighten and check to make sure the .030 gap held. Springtime yellow with black top. The basic problem with this logic is that the timing drifts as the dwell changes so the effort to limit the number of times you adjust the dwell is now taken up by time spent readjusting the timing. Since coil energy increases as the square of the current flowing through it, every milliamp (mA) matters especially at higher rpms. The engine designers select a spark plug gap that is tailored to the design of the combustion chamber and the engine's compression ratio (enough for naturally aspirated engines). For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. NOTE: Remember that adjustments in dwell produce adjustments in timing so you must retime the engine after your final adjustment. Shop the Autorestomod Manic. pertronix ignitor gap settingadd spillover spa to existing pool. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. The engineers specify a dwell period slightly longer than half the mathematical rotation to satisfy all engine operating conditions. It was a little over 0.040" before. 2:1 improvement over "points" in current fall time for increased coil output. Check/adjust the timing. When the circuit of the primary side of the coil is disconnected its magnetic field collapses which induces a magnetic field in the secondary circuit. Let's calculate the time it takes to charge for various dwell periods as specified by VW: The difference may not seem much but as the graph in the earlier section shows you can see how the spark energy will decrease as the coil gets further from its saturation level because of timing. I didn't check for alignment but that may be a good thing to inspect. I've wondered if it's possible to shave the sleeve to generate a smaller dwell without lowering the structural integrity of the magnet but I'm loath to try it without a spare sleeve on hand. All the Pertronix does is act like a perfectly adjusted brand new set of points. When I increased the gap to 2mm I can increase the dwell to about 58 degrees. I am wondering if anyone has any experience or thoughts on the increase in spark plug gap. Now I have a very . Running a Pertronix with their coil, whats the best plug gap? No Pertronix and no points, what are you using ? The shaft is wobbly and the points cam is worn almost smooth. If you do not loosen the distributor hold-down and turn it, you won't change the timing. F or over thirty years, the Ignitor has proven itself in applications ranging from race cars to tractors. Each to their own, but I've had points fail, but not Pertronix, go figure ? Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! At 900rpm, there is plenty of time (16ms) to energize the coil for a full spark but at 4500rpm there isn't enough time (3ms vs. 4ms) to build 100% coil energy. Each Pertronix kit comes with specific instructions how to install and wire them up, if followed exactly, very simple and effective upgrade. The strength of the spring also determines the maximum rpm that the points will stay closed (as they bounce the dwell then becomes erratic). 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